VIDEO BLOG
Episode 2: “The Citizen Vs. The Tribesman”
Citizen = Western. Tribesman = Eastern. These are two different breeds of cat, who see the world in diametrically opposed ways. Can we Westerners impose “citizen values” on a tribal society?
View the credits and transcript for Episode 2.
Mr. Pressfield:
A very interesting and informative couple of presentations, important for illuminating the vast gulf which separates western societies from those of eastern tribal culture.
Now, to some comments and questions:
1. You made quite a good case for tribalism, but no system of human organization is flawless. What are the drawbacks of tribal culture, not only from our biased standpoint, but from the point of view of those who live in them? If I was the CO of a military unit tasked with finding a seam in a given tribal group, to exploit for military purposes, this is the sort of question I’d ask.
2. The tribe, with the possible exception of the family, is the oldest, most basic social unit.
As you have noted, it has many comforts to offer those within it, and certain strengths to offer – i.e. cohesion, place within the world, and so on. However, this begs the question: if tribalism is so great, how come significant portions of the world’s people have rejected it as the organizational basis of society? Clearly, there must be drawbacks to tribal culture. What are they? (I know of a few, but I’d be interested to know if your list is the same as mine).
3. Was American culture once more tribal? IMO, yes. Present-day post-industrial life homogenizes differences that once existed in everything from cuisine to music, to religion to what clothese we wear – but it was not always so. Geographic isolation, and the relative slowness and expense of mass communications, assured that America had different groups of people, truly diverse and not only in the politically-correct sense of the word. More to the point, would it serve us well to revert to tribalism, or at least some aspects of it? Please comment. I’d add that some modern commentators see what is called “reprimitivization” occurring in parts of the developed world.
4. Whose way of life is stronger, in the sense that it will be sustained and/or adopted, versus weakening or dying off – the tribalist, or the modernist? Are we modernizing and “de-tribalizing” them, or are they “retribalizing” us? Nothing is static, change is inevitable; the question is, in what direction is it occurring?
IMO, there exists a significant number of people in the developed world unhappy with the trade-offs implicit in post-modern life, they are alone, alienated and disengaged from their communities, friends, or families and seeking something to which to belong. Whether it is a motorcycle gang or a local club, these reflect our own need to belong to a larger group, and not only to be free agents.
That Marine hit it on the head; becoming a Marine means you are always a Marine, a member of the tribe, one of us and not of them.
One other comment:
Steven, I really enjoyed your novel on Rommel, I plan to read your earlier titles as soon as my schedule permits.
Now, to the “million dollar question”: If you were charged with crafting a grand strategy for Iraq and Afghanistan, what would you do and how would you do it? Leave aside how or why we went into these places; that’s in the past. We’re there, now what will you do about it?
As for me, whatever arguments could be made in favor of staying go out the window, given the fact that our treasury is empty. We can’t afford foreign military adventures anymore, certainly not at the current level. Unless, that is, you want the PRC to continue funding us.
Look forward to the next installments in the series…
Your description of tribes and tribesmen are the same characteristics found in the military and the law enforcement communities. It’s an “us versus them” mentality. So, the USA has sent its tribes over to battle their tribes. The big difference I see is that US military tribes are only in the tribe for 4 years, 10 years, maybe 25 or 30 years. The Eastern tribes are generational. I don’t think a transient army can beat tribes like the Pashtun and Kurds. We’re too young to understand.
Mr. Pressfield,
It occurs to me that the argument of citizen vs. tribesmen doesn’t rest so much on a collective choice on a way of life, but moreover it is simply the result of a ratio of land mass to the populous. In every area where tribes still exist, populations are sparse with often huge land masses surrounding them. Where we’ve adopted ‘citizen’ culture to borrow from your nomenclature, populations are dense. You need look no further than Europe to see its evolution of tribesman to citizen. To be sure, ‘tribes’ exist in the States even (e.g., Gangs), but by and large tribalism fails because the intermingling of tribe member is too great. So absent a population explosion in these conflict regions, I can’t see how tribalism is defeated. It remains until the ratio of land to tribe members no longer supports it.
Iranians have had “shahrvand” = citizen for over a millenia.
Get a grip.
While there has been the concept of shahravand for a very long time, there is also an underlying culture of tribalism that still permeates Iran. This is a nice wikipedia article on the subject, if you’re interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples
Thanks for the dialogue Steve. Thanks for trying to get the cultural word out to our deploying troops.
Semper Fi,
Barb
Proud Marine Mom
I think you have touched base on very important aspects of tribal structures and the mindsets of invididuals associated with them. You put definitions of freedom, liberty and social soundess so accurately that tempts me to ask how you reached your conclusion.
In a affort to perfect your argument, I have to make a one comment regarding education. I am a tribal man from north-west Iraq as my father is. He was born in a tribal village and lived in it for a considerable part of his life, I also lived for a long period of time in that same village. Contrary to the common typecast of a tribal man, he has a D.Sc. in material science from Oxford and PhD. in physics from another British University. I have a graduate degree from Harvard myself. It is important to point out that in accordance to how you defined the need to identify as a “proud member of a group”, all qualifications of idividuals contribute to the group’s collective power, and are actually considered as assests for group. Hence, tribes in reality, encourage education for individuals who excel in it. Occasionally tribes raise funds to support individuals seeking education if they show loyalty to the tribe and the ability to put these funds to good use, and success during their education.
These are first hand observations. I didn’t require any financial help from my tribe but my father did, as well as a number of others in the tribe. I actually provided help to others who needed such help, and among those now are doctors, policemen, and army officers who provided services for their tribal community. Tribes are among the most efficient cooperatives you can imagine.
Thanks
Omar
Thanks, everybody, for posting. Thanks, Barb. Pete, to reply to a little of what you said, I think we’re all basically tribal. That’s why movies like “The Road Warrior” strike such a chord. Let’s go back (or forward) to those days! It’s fun. Certain nations in the west have arisen with great effort and at tremendous sacrifice out of tribalism, with such benchmarks along the way as the Magna Carta, the Rights of Man, the Enlightenement, etc. But it ain’t easy. To live as a “modern” autonomous individual goes against the evolutionary structure of our psyches, which took shape over millions of years of tribal living when cohesion, obedience, and other tribal virtues meant the difference between survival and starvation. It takes tremendous will, self-discipline, self-motivation, self-validation to put the tribal mind behind and live as an autonomous individual. Is it any wonder that people succumb to the ills and vices of modernity and post-modernity? It’s tough being all alone in the world. That’s the price of freedom. And many people don’t want to pay it. That’s not hard to understand or empathize with. “Re-tribalization” is a great word. It’s happening in many places around the globe, including here at home.
As for what would I do in Iraq and Afghanistan, Episode 5 gets into that, at least a little. Next Monday. But I have more detailed thoughts to post as we go along, my own from history and from others who are much smarter than I, who can claim real on-the-ground experience and have had success in that very area. One of them is my good friend, Major Jim Gant of the Special Forces, who is working on a paper right now titled “One Tribe At A Time.” His thesis starts with classic COIN theory that Step One in any counterinsurgency is to establish security for the indigenous population, so that a mother and father aren’t scared to death about the safety of their children in their own home and are not afraid to say what they think. But where he diverges from some of the current thought is he believes that that goal can be accomplished — and can ONLY be accomplished — through the existing tribal structure, at least in the non-urban areas of Afghanistan and other like countries. (Cities are different, obviously.) Empowering the tribes, reinforcing their legitimacy as agents of governance, giving them the tools to resist intimidation by militant and extremist elements, winning their confidence, speaking their language and fighting alongside them. More to come on that
Tribalism is in many ways comparable to nationalism. Especially in Europe were nations were build around certain “ethnic” groups.
The big strength of tribalism is their endurance, for better or worse. Usually as Rich Gibson pointed out in less dense areas, but it is not written in stone.
However their big disadvantage is the lack of actual basic human justice w.r.t. other tribes or nations. This divides them in small pockets unable to organize effectively for large scale endeavors, unless they:
1. numerically explode their numbers
2. find a leech/organized crime like position in a society
Only a few groups have (to a limited extend) transcended the tribalism and ethnic nationalism, which include nations centered around some over arching idea like the U.S.A. with their declaration of independence, (Ancient) China with its “All under heaven” mindset, Genghis Khan with his tribe transcending politics and meritocracy etc.
Some religions also fall in this category, but although many in theory are universal, in practice only a few really are.
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Although the Afghans are very tribal in Afghanistan, when they come to live in Europe some I know easily adopt the (decent or criminal) ways of the citizen.
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Thanks Steven – interesting view.
However, I am not sure that describing people as tribal or citizens encompasses the whole of a person. I am thinking of the ancient symbol of the Tao, where there is a element of Yin within the heart of Yang and vice versa. Together they form a whole.
Growing up a citizen type, I definitely find and feel aspects of tribalism in me and my life. How do we support the tribal and still tap into the element of citizenship that must exist in them at some level? That is the question that leads to the answer.
IMHO
Further – I would like to upload the videos to youtube in order to get them to a wider audience. I know of several people/groups that I would love to have watch the videos and get their feedback – but they may or may not wish to get involved with the whole facebook morass.
Thank you friend for all the hard work you have put into these.